I have seen that "Recorderman Overhead Drum technique" video so many times. I wish someone would make a parody of it.

So much potential. The narrator's lazy attitudey tone. The rushed pace. The top mic shaking all over the place. The derpy drummer. Mediocre indie rock backing track.

http://community.feministing.com/2012/0 ... t-anymore/

Somebody posted this article on facebook and it popped up on my news feed. I am friends with this girl and am very much aware that she is a feminist and we have talked about it and I basically just express that I understand her beliefs and we always leave it that. But when I read this shit, I really just don't get it. Does it not sound like the most whiney, melodramatic shit you have ever read? I think this will be a fine way to test how much of an asshole I am. What do you gents think when you read that?

Like... I understand that women have to deal with certain social handicaps in terms of their roles in society and all that shit. I really do, how could I not when it's been one of the most debated topics of the past two centuries? But when I read this shit it's just SO up it's own ass, I have shit I would love to whine about too. But I recognize how If you don't like those kinds of fucking people who are "oppressing" you, fucking avoid them. Do not go to bars with sleazy men if you do not want to encounter that sort of shit.

Aaaaaaaand, I make one conservative comment and am bombarded.

Banthammer needs a grind song called "Dear Male Feminist,".

It is always surreal when I am confronted square in the face with fact that I do not live in a post-"giving a fuck" world.

Feminism: The belief that equality between the sexes can be achieved by solely focusing on the problems of one sex.

Shit's outdated and often a source of frustration for me.

Men have problems too, and a good lot of them are because of feminism.

I get the feeling youse guys's ideas of what feminism is and means are very, very different than mine. I'm not entirely sure what problems feminism is supposed to be causing me or what it's stopped me from doing? Granted I suspect also I am approaching this from a very different viewpoint, all knotted up with politics, history and I have no use for the idea that men are somehow superior merely by virtue of being men. Penis ≠ authority. And all one has to do is look at right-wing American politics to know that treatment of women under the law and in the workplace, and even in the heath care system, is still a very real concern.

Yarr, i am wif snaxo on this one.

Either you guys are bonkers, or you are referring to/hating on, something else entirely, and identifying that as "feminism".

What is it exactly and specifically that you find so abhorrent about the feminist concept?

Also, Unstrung, please list some male problems that stem from feminist ideals.

Or, as is entirely possible, the subject(s?) of the aforementioned ire is referring to something as feminism themselves. I didn't peruse the whatnots; it seems to involve sleazy men at bars? Which leads me to believe there's some gender-relations and social stuff going on here that is outside the scope of feminism? Which is a word that gets tossed around a bunch improperly. (Socialism's another good example of a loaded -ism word that gets the same treatment.)

Arg, it's something I am (probably temporarily) sick of talking about.

Let her explain, she makes the point far better than I ever could:

I recognize Geoff's point of view, and while I do not necessary agree with it I have to admit some parts of it are understandable. Granted I am typing this without watching the video above as the wife is asleep and I don't feel like digging up headphones.

Basically, from what I understand of previous conversations on the subject matter, it is a system of expectations that force men into certain behaviors based on societal standards that are for the better part overlooked. More straightforward, women say they want equality, but behavioral norms set in place do not allow for true equality.

Take the concept of chivalry. Men are supposed to open doors for women, put their jackets over puddles, go to war, take the last available seats on the life boats, make more money in a marriage and in general have responsibility for/an obligation to "take care" of women.

These are inarguable facts in our society, and while exceptions to the rule exist (quite commonly) the concept of women being put before men is quite real. Most police officers are men, most fire fighters are men and most dangerous jobs are worked by men. If danger is involved, a man is the assumed person to take care of it. Is that a correct point of view? No, ideally the genders would be equal. Does such a viewpoint exist? As a person raised in the south, the concept of man ensuring the well-being of the woman is quite real and expected.

Put simply, the argument is women want the benefits of true equality without sacrificing antiquated societal standards that place women as more valuable than men. While men may be afforded better opportunities in general, they are also held to higher expectations.

The idea of a "gold-digging" female is quasi-taboo; it is frowned upon but socially accepted. However, what does that same society view of a man who depends on his wife for financial security? Men are expected to be ... "men."

This is a very basic and lacking explanation of the "men's rights" perspective. I could be off, but this is what I have gathered based on conversations I have had with people who have argued for the movement. And I get it, honestly I do.

But here is the thing, (once again, from the south-eastern US point of view) as a white male in SC, I have an advantage over every single demographic in every situation outside of survival and etiquette. And historically women have usually gotten the shit end of the stick. So while I recognize the argument, and I agree that until society as a whole agrees to set the same standards for all genders and race we cannot have true equality, I just can't get behind it 100% because in my experience, I am at the top of the food chain.

YMMV

I agree with Devin.

So very many problems with this person's tirade.

But you don't want to talk about it, so i will just leave it at that.

This is the crux of it. For men to attempt to paint ourselves as some sorts of victims of cultural bias against our inherent worth, is totally ridiculous, when men run everything and write all of the rules that matter. It is merely a backlash against what is perceived as the coming day when women might be in charge of something (that matters!), and change some of the more ridiculous rules. Men preaching, far in advance of its actual occurrence, that they are being made worthless, by... society? But they mean, "being made worthless, by powerful women", i guess. I would prefer that they would say it how they mean it though.

Anyhow, let us get one thing straight. Men and women are not the same. But then, gender equality is not the same thing as male=female. Men will (for the foreseeable future, though it may change in some distant one)always be statistically bigger and stronger than women. Women will continue to be the only source of new humans(though this too could again, change in the distant future). Children will always be the smaller, weaker, dumber versions of adults.

If it comes down to an aggressive confrontation, it is going to be men coming out on top every time. If there is a mad rush for lifeboats, and the decision of "worth" is determined by brute strength*, those boats are going to be loaded all the fuck up with dudes. And if you think that is the "right" solution, then you are most likely 1. male. 2. shortsighted, and 3. bonkers.

[Not to mention the argument conveniently sidesteps the fact that those considered really "valuable" individuals(scientists, doctors, politicians, celebrities, whatever) get sent to the lifeboats regardless of gender. And that those same "valuable" individuals often are sent to some other part of the battlefield than the meat grinder front line.]

*(As these folks seem to be implying it should be - or will they have everyone carry a card that lists their Worth Value for quick and easy sorting? (And who decides Worth Value, anyhow? Is it determined by presenting the facts of one's usefulness to a court or Worth Value Evaluators? Will a market arise in which people can hire Worth Value Lawyers skilled in fudging the data to yield higher values**? So rich white male fucks will basically come out on top anyhow, like always, right?))

**(As they will afford obvious societal advantage, and people are accustomed now to living as they do, this will be the far more likely course than the utopian "everyone will actually BECOME useful! They will HAVE to!" that is implied. You want a math-based system? Prepare for some ugly math.)

Tangential dark visions of the technical difficulties involved in establishing future "merit-based" societies aside, i do take the feminist/antifeminist issue more seriously than it might sound from that.

And i simply haven't heard yet, a good list of all of these huge "problems" that feminists are making for men. Like, please, even just ONE good one. A Man Problem that comes straight from the feminist agenda to unfairly abuse and restrict our Male Rights? Anyone?

One that I have noticed: Women always win sexual harassment suits, even if the woman was the one harassing. Well, not always, but the majority of the cases. Men really have to work their ass off to win a sexual harassment suit.

Also: Women climb the corporate ladder twice as fast as men, regardless of ability or intellect, because it's PC to have women high up in your company. This is from general observation and of course isn't always true.


But, the same problems exist on the other side of the fence too, just in different areas. I believe in equality and support it wholeheartedly, but I do not like the fact that some groups/people/sexes tend to be more equal than others, if you know what I mean.


True equality will never happen. It's impossible, we're humans, we have self-preservation instincts, we have bias, we all have shit wrong with us that makes us not equal to the next person in some way or another.

The problem with both of those situations, is that they both represent an overcorrection to a pre-existing self-standing injustice in the opposite direction, rather than an outright self-standing injustice of its own.

Were it not for greedy selfish doods misusing their power to ensure that for many years sexual harassment was common, expected, and protected, modern humans would be far less inclined to suspect that the modern dood's intentions might be less than decent. Similarly, were it not for ages upon ages of completely male dominated workforces and management, modern humans would be far less inclined to make inroads specifically for women in both areas.

While overcorrection like this does look an awful lot like injustice(and is indeed, not "right") it is really a problem that men built ourselves, not one that was foisted upon us by women. "Doing what you can, because you can, and because you want to" is rarely in and of itself a recipe for longterm, consequence-free living. No one who goes that way wants to pay the consequences, that is just an element of human nature. But the consequences are coming anyhow.

I fully agree with this though. "Equality" is mostly just a buzzword, and like all buzzwords, it, immediately upon coming into existence, has been rehoused in various statements by various individuals and groups to produce a wide range of, even opposite, meanings for the word.

As i see it, it is much less about making everyone the same. And it is much more about the fact that society works best, when the strong help the weak, AND the weak help themselves. Which means that, in my view, both "sides" are going to be pretty much wrong half the time, and pretty much right half the time. And only rational analysis and case-by-case adjustment is going to produce the "right" end result.

First and foremost: I would not say that I am in any way suffering as a result of feminism. That is, besides possibly annoying me every once in awhile. It's not a matter of feminism offending me as much as it is the pathetic language used in that article. Clearly not every feminist or female for that matter is going to read that article and be like "OH FUCK YEAH I IDENTIFY WITH THIS", but when I read it and watched almost a dozen girls "like" it and discuss how they are waiting for some stupid man to step in to to start confirming their beliefs (which I ended up ironically playing the role of). I realize that these are 18-21 year old girls who are highly opinionated that I am referring to, so the older gents and I may not have the same material to source from.

I was asked to define feminism in my eyes: I would define feminism as the social empowerment of women. Not in a militaristic or imposing manner, but promoting social awareness and some semblance of equality. I can get behind that, that makes sense to me. However, the whiney ass tone of that article makes me sick and does not line up with what I would call proper feminism. EVERYONE in this world experiences oppression, clearly the amount administered to each individual is not the same, but we all experience negativity. I have been both complimented and jeered at for my appearance in public, unwanted or wanted from both sides of the field. In that way I can halfassedly claim to know what they mean in those terms. No, I have not had my ass or breasts grabbed at by , but I know PLENTY of females who also haven't. There are myriad of other things that could be used against besides that however, I will never have to worry about being paid less at a job or any of the other little bits of bullshit that I agree are unfair for women.

I don't think I have to explain that I am not a misogynist. I love women, I would pay large sums of money for pretty ones to show more interest in me. BUT, I think that somewhere down there I do have some sort of subconscious resentment towards women? I mean really, I know that I do. I feel it every once in awhile and realize that it's really there. It's not a hate/anger/violence thing, it's a lonely/stayinsidethehouseforafewdays sort of thing. But I am pretty sure that is not what is going on here with my annoyance with this article.

I am sitting here though and thinking about it. No one here will ever come to full understanding on this issue. Consider the backgrounds of a few people here: Chris grew up with nothing but sisters and had a lot of them. Clearly he will have more insight into this issue than, I, for example. I have one sister, though she has Aspberger's Syndrome and does not display many behaviors typical of any normal girl, or of any normal human for that matter. I also despise my sister which might have removed some of my empathy skills. ALSO; I live in a rich suburb with a very low crime rate. Girls in my area do not have to deal with violent sexual crimes on a level girls in a more urban area like NY, for example. I am kinda with Geoff though, I've come to realize quickly it is not a fantastic conversation topic. It is one of the few things that I cannot enjoy feeling like an asshole about.

At one point I had 5 sisters... one died of cancer a couple years ago. I have 2 brothers that I didn't grow up with, so I see the problems women face every day.

I also see the problems men face with women every day too... like the vast majority of women (around here) being total fucking nutcases. I've had a woman bash my car with a 2x4 because I took her boyfriend to a bar on his birthday. Or wanted to...

One of my ex's was a big time feminist and a psychologist to boot so I got all that shit right in the ear all day
Of the feminists I know today one is a stripper and does wacky hardcore BDSM porno (see the what whut? forum) and is generally a very odd person. The other was an older married chick that I had the misfortune of getting involved with* who would rant and rave about all sorts of things. She was one of those self delusional types that erroneously thinks they're intelligent and needlessly uses big words in a failed attempt to impose and impress. Anyway she'd pull this a study showed this or a recent report has found that blah blah and then do the classic 30% embellishment to the findings that people tend to do. She rapidly came unstuck when asked for authors, where it was published and who funded it which is pretty damn critical stuff when you're dealing with the social sciences in my experience. Of course I was just being a typical male bastard for bringing this up

As for my personal beliefs I try not to worry about things too much and cast everything under the bracket of dont be a dick to people.


* long story.