OH AND FUCK THIS CIVIL DISCOURSE YOU ARE ALL WRONG, I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY.


Oh and openly gay men who want to teach children? YOU'RE FUCKERD!










Seriously, this is the internet. Someone better call someone a motherfucker or

The gay thing is a whole other can of worms though, I think.

Oh hells yeah it does.

But do you think openly lesbian women are similarly discriminated? I would probably guess so, especially given the occurrence of female abuse by females (I think it said 13%) in the education system.

Just hurling the gay insult made me think of that.

But if you think practically, most of the sexual abuse cases are against female students. Gay male teachers would not abuse female students, thus gay teachers = less abuse to female students.

Male students can take it (duh-duh-ch).

I've stopped being serious at this point, if you couldn't tell by now.

And what are the statistics for how many of the men who are abused, are abused by men? Meaning, what is your point in mentioning it in reference to the idea of male/female equality? Are you implying that almost 17%(as a low estimate) of the male population has experienced rape or an attempted rape?

Fucking statistics man. There are reasons why the court systems are arranged in such a fashion as to default custody to mothers. Statistics. Thank deadbeats for that.

And believe me, a good friend of mine is currently going through all kinds of shit with his ex-wife and regarding the children he had with her. I understand the difficulties. And really if a mother is truly unfit it is not that difficult to prove. Another friend of mine has gone through that process as well.

Again, the idea that men have to fight for equality, is as i said before, completely laughable. We just don't want to give up any more ground. If you are considering the fact that courts currently lean towards the support of the mother in custody cases, and society towards the belief of rape and abuse accusations, as "benefits they have enjoyed all along" then you are messed up, or oblivious. Maybe you don't know many women? Or maybe you don't know the women you know, as well as you think you do?

My own personal experience with the group of the women i myself have known, dated, been related to, is that the statistics are actually much worse than the published averages.

A good percentage of male rape is at the hands of other men, yes, such as but not exclusively in prison. But female to male rape also happens, make no mistake. There are many cases of older women abusing young boys. Also cases of psychological torment inflected on male spouses. And yes, even violence at the hands of a sociopathic wife.

The 'benefits they have enjoyed all along' I spoke of were... chivalry, basically. The courtesies that women can expect and men are expected to make. Now in today's world acts of chivalry can be successfully transformed into acts of sexual abuse, such as a compliment or advance. And so now, you can be given a warning or even fired if you show interest in a coworker. So where do we go? You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, because either behaviours (holding a door for the woman, or letting her open the door herself, for instance) can be construed as sexist. How do we conduct ourselves, now? You just don't know what the expectations are anymore.

In any case of abuse the statics never tell the whole story.

It is well known children, regardless of gender, rarely report sexual abuse. Mainly because sexual abuse is more commonly committed by people who know the child are in a position of authority. I wish the study I quoted would have posted the statistic for male-on-male abuse in the education system. It is most certainly in their data, but I have no means of accessing it without dropping some coin.

And like i said us men have it sweet. We most certainly have no need to fight for equality. Shit even Wal-Mart pays men more than women, or at least as was in the recent discrimination case brought against them (I'll try and find it, but Wal-Mart pays and promotes men more surprise surprise).

I just hate discrimination in general, but in the fight for equality there have been situations where, as a reporter who I forget put it, "some people are just more equal."

Companies should not be forced to hire a minority or a woman over a more-qualified white male because of "equality", but it happens all the time. On the other hand, there are so many companies that would only hire white men, that these laws need to exist. The problem is the world is just a fucked up place.

Another case of recent discrimination that made me laugh.

Our local high school cheerleading team had to redo tryouts a few years back because they chose too many white girls. A black girl who was turned away mother's complained, and the school was told to have the team be at least 1/3 black (because fuck the hispanic and asian girls). They did it, and the team was no longer able to compete in cheerleading because the 1/3 of the team that was chosen purely based on race was not able to do a lot of the ... er stunts or whatever ... that are required.

On the other hand, it was argued the team purposely dumbed down it's routine to make it seem like the black girls were the problem, and that the black girls could do the more advanced throws and such no problem.

Their human pyramid crumbled at a prep rally, I should include.




As long as their are differences among us, it seems we are always going to try to exploit them. I wish we lived in a world where people were considered on their individual merits instead of their identifying features, but we associate. Dad's shown to be dead beats? Then ALL dads must be dead beats. One woman get's pregnant and has to miss work? Then ALL women will get pregnant and have to miss work.

It is stupid stupid stupid, and I hate it. Fuck I work a job where I have been told to discriminate against certain people because of how much money they appear to make. Why? Because statistically lower-income guests tend to steal and break things.

Luckily there is the great equalizers of credit cards. If you got a valid credit card I don't give a fuck how rich you look I will sell you a room, and if you fuck it up I'll charge you.

A kid in my class lost his virginity when he got drunk and was raped by a fat girl.



He was telling us the story, and of course someone said something along the lines of, "Y u mad tho." That always struck me as odd, but the kid told the story laughing so the psychological trauma must have low, or he masked it well.

And in this climate I often find myself feeling like I have crossed some unsaid line, that I'm doing something wrong, if I do something so innocent as sitting on a seat on a bus that is in plain view of a young female. They turn themselves awkwardly in their seat to the front of the bus, because my seating decision has made them uncomfortable. Nothing against her if I make her feel that way, fine. That's just the way she is. But why am I feeling like I've done something wrong? Because I've already been conditioned to feel guilt for being what I am.

I joke about this with my girlfriend. She always talks about how she wants to be equal, but expects me to pay for everything, open the car door for her etc. etc.

Of course, I still pay and open doors for her, because she is just "more equal" Also I make more money

Probably not for long though. She is a much better graphic designer than I am a writer, and will probably make the money while I take care of our adopted children and teach them instruments. I'd make an awesome stay-at-home Dad.

Dude, i hold the door open for guys too. This shit is not that difficult. In fact, it sounds like you have made it more difficult in your mind than it really needs to be.

And again, the scrutiny at the workplace stems from abuses at the workplace. In an environment that was founded very much on a culture of male dominance in the workplace, what you see now is a reaction to the abuses of the dominant males in that system. It wasn't borne of thin air.

And do you really think that there are as many physically abusive wives out there, as husbands? Really?

Of course I don't think there are as many abusive wives out there. At least, not physically abusive. Did I ever say I think so? The fact is it does happen... abuse is not exclusively male inflicted.

Now, I hold a door open for men too, of course. It's not a big deal. That was one example, from the entire scale of things men once did for women, and now do/don't should/shouldn't.

The fact that the situation I described in a workplace is the reaction to male dominance does nothing to dispute the existence of inequality. In fact you just admitted that it exists, that men and only men have to make special considerations, or suffer the consequences. So thank you for that. The past is what it is and it can't be changed. But burdening men with a host of new problems doesn't fix anything. Doing so accomplishes nothing, it's stupid, and it is what mens' rights is all about. It's NOT about 'preserving what dominance remains'.

You both are making valid points.

So obviously, rap battle.

But seriously this is probably the first really heated "debate" I have seen on here, and I am so proud of everyone for using logic, reason and facts to support their arguments instead of just hurling insults.

This is why I love this place.

Never ever said that it was? What is the point of bringing it up? The point is that the balance is HEAVILY tilted the other way.



Dooood. Men's rights? Which men have squandered. Actively and repeatedly. The "inequality" that you are imagining in the workplace, is not the problem of women, it is not caused by women. It is caused by men, who in great numbers abused the power that they were given. What you will now experience in the workplace, thanks to those men, is the system trying to level itself out in their wake.

And the whole idea of established 'chivalry' itself is a male dominant thing. Ditch the whole fucking works. I don't care. If women think they want that, then they need to learn what it really means when it is done.

Lastly, please explain: "But burdening men with a host of new problems doesn't fix anything."

What host of new problems are men burdened with?

We are all friends here. That is the one of the bigger differences between here and other places. I argue with my friends IRL all the time. It is good times.

Here we don't have all kinds of dipshits. If we did, i wouldn't even post at all in this sort of exchange.

Very true. To have a proper argument you have to have mutual respect, and that is hard to find on the webz.

Imagine this topic at HCAF

I would rather not.

No one 'gave' men power. They just had it, by virtue of brute strength. Those times are behind us now. Now in these times, a woman can cry abuse, sexism, hate speech, whatever, because they don't like the way a man conducts himself. Because he does or does not do the things that he is and isn't supposed to do. So now a smart man basically has to walk on eggshells around women, because his sex is the 'bad one'. And he can easily be made into a victim, as Devin described with the teacher at his school. Those are the new problems men have to face, as a reaction to the old gender dynamic. The goal is supposed to be equality, but what we have here instead is merely replacing one inequality with the other.

As an aside, I don't believe men and women are equal; equality is a sham. The fact is men and women are different. Everyone is different. Equality is unattainable, and that is why we end up dealing with the double standards.

That is the real problem.

For example, the rich and the poor are supposed to be equals in this country.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Fucking poor people.

I wish we could have discussed how massively queer the dudes in the videos were.

No, they just TOOK it, by virtue of brute strength. And those times are still very much with us right now. We are continually feeling the repercussions.

And no, men do not have to "walk on eggshells" around women. BUT. they can no longer expect to be allowed to take what they want by virtue of their brute man-ness either. Listen, there is a very real thing that most men need to learn, and learn well, that will solve 90% of their problems with women. It goes: Most women do NOT want to have sex with you. Period. That is it.

If more men learned that, it would make all interactions a lot less screwed up. Assume that no one at the office/school/gas station/whatever wants to fuck you, and huh, social interactions with all of them become much simpler. You do what is decent, you help who you can who needs help, you do your job, you act to others how you would like them to act to you. Leave sexual politics out of it. Stop trying to turn every instant into some atavistic simian mating ritual. There is a time for the atavistic simian mating ritual, but it is not ALL THE TIME.

As an aside, i really take issue with folks who push this primitivist sort of agenda with dissecting social interactions. It is hugely popular in dating/relationship and advertising analysis(probably the only places it perhaps comes anywhere near being useful) but too many try to extend it out to make some sort of supposedly accurate picture of what governs and guides ALL social interactions. The mating dance is just one part of what makes society function. It doesn't translate well IMO when one attempts to apply the model to the entire universe as a whole.

Lastly, inherent differentiation is, IMO not the same thing as inherent inequality. If the genders were not closer to equal than you are suggesting, then there would not be this 'war of the sexes' at all.

The same thing goes for rich/poor, IMO. The problem is not inequality, but rather, NEAR equality.

Near enough to be worth fighting for, see.