At least then they covered it up better; I think the lack of grid editing comes into play there. (See SOTS for some serious triggering that still sounds like real drums. In part because it's samples of real drums and tracked IIRC to 2" tape so I doubt Mr. Nordstrom's splicing shit down on their budget.) A consistent hard hitter who plays tight and is used to fast styles unless yer doing 200+ BPM 16ths on the kicks IMO in my admittedly comparatively inexperienced but somewhat experienced world negates the need. Kick yer running headlong into the physical properties of the instrument- this is a very large drum that produces lots of really low frequencies and the head doesn't respond that fast. Let's assume you're hitting it with a double pedal vs. having two really good ones 'cause you're a broke-ass drummer in a metal band. Now hit that a thousand times in a minute with even halfassed force. I get the kick thing.

But I digress; as much as I thought the shiny production thing was cool when it was new (albeit in a less egregious form than is now par for the course), I think that sorta music loses a lot of its impact without a tougher, rougher edge to it. Ndz mr bllz plox kthx. Y'know?

I have actually come to almost desire what would be considered traditionally "shitty" production, myself. Like the first demo we did has grown on me in this really weird way, where I just want a slightly cleaned up and tuned version of that sound. The toms and guitar need to be more audible, but it has this overwhelming rapeface bass content that is just overwhelming. The cymbal work is highly audible, everything has this layer of filth over the top of it that just fucking grinds. Like; yeah.. This was recorded in somebody's garage.. And it's awesome.

Also, in terms of the physical demands of a drummer: I say let them fuck up and just leave it alone. I don't mean sloppy drumming or anything, but the imperfections of human playing and the frantic push/pull of a band not playing to a click or gridded out is a beautifully fucked up sound.

That is not far off maybe. Without knowing all of the details of how a recording might have come together, i will say that i generally get a sort of subconscious poke when something in my brain wants to let me know it thinks that something is "off". Or that the vocalist i am hearing had way too much time to think about all of the vowels he/she has got bouncing around in their skull. Or if there is a producer pushing for more emoooootion for this, the twenty-third take.

If a singer has too much time to think about it, they will fuck it up. And they will fuck it up by giving too much thought to what they can cram into a take, rather than what will get the job done.

Now, that is one case/possible explanation. For all i know, the guy from Opeth one-takes everything he does, and maybe i just completely hate his style. Specifically for him, i listen and have trouble thinking anything but "geez, this fucking guy takes himself pretty seriously, no?" It is more than just theatre. It is theatre PLUS that x-factor. Whether it is pretense, or whether it is ego, or whether it is just a disconnect between what is being said and how it is being said, or whether it is some jumble of all of it, i dunno.

The fucking guy from Fucking Muse. Well, it is completely impossible for me to take him seriously. I don't even know why. Vocally, he is not terribly dissimilar to someone like Jeff Buckley in range and general attack, but geezus gawd he is a million bazillion miles away from making useful sounds with his skillset. It is a classic case to me of "just because you can, doesn't mean you should". And that is funny, because back to Buckley, there is a lot of shit he does that is completely justforthefuckofitbecauseicansucka, BUT... The overall feeling is not that he is doing it to earn his "BAST SINGAR EVAR" plaque, but rather, that he is just amusing himself by seeing what he can get to pop out his face as he goes. You can almost hear him smiling to himself with a "what the fuck was THAT?" sort of pause in some of the live shit. He just wanted to party down and it came out his vocal chords. The fucking guy from fucking Muse, i feel like he pauses to see if the fedex guy is there with the plaque yet. Anyhootangent.

As for Staley/Cantrell and Cornell, i think they are all quite good. Staley is definitely an affectation, but it is of a sort that actually drops the vocal back some, rather than one used to smash the listener in the teeth with. The affectation if anything in that case is to cover up what is not particularly a awesome singer, IMO. It makes it much better too. That is how, IMO such a thing can be done right. Same idea, but All Wrong might be something doucherock like i don't know, Creed or something, even Eddie Vedder at times has flirted with that sort of Too Much. That is trying to pull the vocal up and bring it forward. I hear it like when kids record themselves doing death metal vocals and you can tell that they have done it with a headset condenser halfway down their throat and at a total room volume of about 2dB because their mum has just asked them What The Bleeding Fuck Are They Doing In There At This Hour And Don't They Have A Paper To Finish For Class Tomorrow.

I.e. the Wrong Damn Thing comes forward.

Chris Cornell, i have no particular beef with, other than the fact that the EQ range he winds up in fairly often when he pushes, i find a little grating. He has his moments and he has his sound. Like someone like Billy Corgan for me, i have to be in the mood to hear it, though.

What would you think of Sabbath or Zeppelin or The Who or Maiden or Rush (put on Moving Pictures; he pushes the beat) lined up to the grid? Never mind Stones or Beatles or old R&B stuff; harder rocking bands. Suspect they would lose something without the push/pull in different parts of songs because that's what works. Just a ...guess. (I've even read about Andy Sneap taking this into account, setting up the click so play 2 BPM faster in the choruses and push it a little, that sort of thing... It's not much work, when it comes down to it, to map out a good feel for a song.) It's not even chops as such, it's just smart, intuitive musicianship. And I find it humorous to see that shit coming from metal guys with pretensions to classical musicianship. Rubato, anyone? And that's the tip of the iceberg. That is not a hard, metronomic feel, never was and shouldn't be. And those classical players are Probably In A Better... er, "Band"? Than You, heshers.

Re: production- studio's an instrument; dial it in to suit the material. Lotta meaner stuff sounds better dirtier. Distorted mid-fi sounds can make a real tough sounding record that actually still sounds good, too, for example. You're dealing with artificial, electric or electronic sounds, for the most part, save for perhaps the drums (and make it work if you have a good player; that trumps the rest IMO). Commitment to convention means, again IMO, you'll never do better than second-best. You're forever an also-ran until you take the chance and let go, even just that little bit.

Oh, I think that would ruin a lot of the magic of those bands. I think Sabbath is the best example, lots of live band drudging and fucking with tempo variation going on there.. I also think that the effect is also important at higher BPMs. A band playing (or NOT playing) shit quantized to the millisecond does not sound nearly as awesome as a band keeping their shit in frantic, off-kilter lockstep where they're doing the push/pull thing in perfect unison. You can bring swagger and swing to slam riffs, it's not just for Big Dumb Rawk Riffs as you like to call them. I just feel like that element should be preserved for certain genres.. Okay, you play in Necrophagist or some other crazy techdeath band? I get it, precision is key. However, you play super pissed, juggernaut slam riffs 75% of the time? Well.. Make it sound like 4 dudes in a garage doing just that.

More or less, what I thought, and a fairly accurate assessment to boot. The Opeth one- though I adore his band- even throws me off at times to the point I think there's an intentional disconnect between the person and the music. Almost á la Sisters Of Mercy, but no, that's just a wiseass being dead serious-but-snarky even though I do get a similar vibe from both of them. Not even a Maynard Keenan thing, where you know he's laughing at you. But that's one where I'm a big fan of the band and you get lighthearted geek from the person and UTTER GODDAMN SERIOUSNESS from the performer (until they stop to say something between songs.)

Muse, yeah. And I like the band! I found his voice near-unbearable when I first got into them, not because of the timbre, which falls well into the Buckley/Thom Yourke range but... just the presentation of it seemed So. [breath] Overly. [breath] Affected [/breath].

And I like a lot of shitty singers. I like old Megadeth and Rush records. I love the Pumpkins and NIN and The Cure. I love death metal and Tom Waits and Diamanda Galas and Skinny Puppy.

The '90s guys, I figured I'd ask out of a general sort of curiosity. There's definitely an OTT element to it but one that I feel comes from a fairly traditional rawk place- and a legit emotional one as well. But IMO doesn't cross that line into Trying Too Hard. I get AIC as a definitely more affected thing than Chris Cornell (I hear a lot of Robert Plant and old R&B here; that's just his style) but it works, I think, with the darkness of the band and makes sense in that context, as does the occasional but very obvious use of effects on the guitars. It serves it purpose and is delivered with impact and force and helps the song, even if it probably sounds silly soloed.

It doesn't hurt that those bands had exponentially more interesting rhythm sections than the hair metal or bro rock that proceeded or followed them.

Chris, if I may be so bold: whatchu think of MIke Patton? And not just in Faith No More?

At faster tempos what I usually hear is the band pushing the beat. Now you could do a Morbid Angel thing with 32nds on the kicks and half notes on the snare, but that's kind of its own thing. And that's true (and I see you've absorbed my terminology after about a million posts ) -even with subdivisions of faster tempos ultimately you're SLAMming 1 2 3 4 and your 300 BPM can be a sawed-off 75.

If all involved thought about this shit music would be better.

Indeed, it is largely like super fucked up funk/R&B music played by angry white kids. It's ALL about the rhythm (or atleast the brand of slam my band partakes in), the melody is there to compliment and accent the flow of the chugs and whatnot. There's also a lot of dynamics going on that are unfortunately not so noticeable due to the compression of highly distorted guitar tone, but a chugger worth his salt knows how to work the upbeat and work open strummed chords into the palm mutes in a menacing, churning fashion. It is easily the part of metal I am most passionate about and could go on for hours about it.

Also: If everyone thought about this shit this forum would not exist.

Interesting but perhaps true considering where we originated...

Now, you've got a big dynamic swing on yer chugs there; even with a non-br00tz tone on the Garda stuff we were getting a good 3db with a normal high-ish gain sound off a big closed-back cab. And this is with snooty gear and players and tones. Now, I'm betting- just a guess- you could get some serious balls if you didn't smash the mix for sheer loudness and just turned up the rekkid.

My personal experience tells me this is true. Now, it means a quieter average level of records and when we say they're meant to be played loud we really, really mean it.

Every once in a while I wonder what a really clean jazz-style recording of a really tight brutal band would sound like.

re: Dynamics, in an ideal recording situation I would have Kaleb record one guitar track through a mid-gain Marshall or something to bring some clarity and well.. dynamics to the guitar tone. I think (in theory) this would help those open chords and whatnot really jump out at you which is the intention of course.

And I assume you mean DM with a clean tone, right? I've heard it played like that, riffs that would normally be played through a distorted amp and it just sounds like really evil classical music, drums included is what would be really interesting to hear.

No, actually; I mean the band throwing down in a really nice acoustic space with consideration given to the sound of the band in the room. More a studio setting versus a gigging one. I'd be curious to hear what it sounded like. I'm saying set them up in a big studio room like it was an old-school jazz record, but the band's throwing down metal.

And re: recording your band- that does actually work if you mix it right. Metal as it's usually done seems to prefer really unnatural/impossible sounds- see the kick drum thing! The thing is though to pull that off your rhythm guitarist can't be someone who's reliant solely on amp gain for their sound. You need the actual pick attack and punch from a less compressed tone to get... well the pick attack and punch. Which means they have to sound just as good on lower gain/clean settings or even- gasp!- an acoustic.

Wanna build yer chops? Learn it on acoustic. It forces your picking dynamics into shape- you have no choice or you sound like bunghole. It's not gonna make you faster or your rhythms tighter, but IMO it will make you a qualitatively better player- and less dependent on the amp to do the heavy lifting, which increases your expressive capability as an electric player, rhythm and lead work. It may ruin you toward some things re: your electric playing though and make you re-evaluate.

As a digression: play on an acoustic (a good one, if you can) to a drum beat, not a metronome. Rip all your metal on/to that. I claim this works and improves your shit in a real-world context across the board as a player.

But yeah, Cam, totally get Kaleb to double his traxxx with a lower gain classic rawk tone if you can (which would probably sound nasty in itself!) I fully endorse metal being done creatively, because that's my number one bitch about the genre- the worst sin it could commit, for something that's supposed to be all exciting and in-your-face and eff you! I'll do what I want!...

...is to be boring.

Defeats the purpose, so any ideas you have re: being awesome, I say try.

Unfortunately I won't be around for the recording that will be taking place soon, I'll still be up here. I'd prefer to be there to monitor things and try to make the best of a modest situation. An interface with two available mic inputs will be used and drums will be recorded along with both mics as Kaleb plays along with him through headphones. Then guitar and bass will be recorded separately, two takes of guitar most likely. K is huge on clarity in tone so he'd be cool with the mid-gain idea, he'll be recording through a passive EMG equipped LTD baritone into a Titan-modded 5150 so it's a pretty standard/good set up. He uses a pretty sparse amount of gain on the 5150 so it shouldn't be too bad at all. Fat bass will be present as well.

I like him? I like him more the stranger he gets actually. On the second two Mr. Bungle records he is about perfect for what the music wants. In Fantomas he is gloriously OTT. He was the best part of that Dillinger Escape Plan EP he was on. That sort of thing.

I am a fair bit less into that thing he did recently with the orchestra doing italian filmsongs. Mostly though, because it seemed like he was making fun of the music, more than being really into it. That may just be how he comes across though, as he has done enough work with those influences that one would expect that he actually liked that music. The execution made it seem like it was just something he found amusingly quaint in a throwaway joke sort of way. Which you would think would be a difficult thing to pull off with a thirty piece orchestra behind you, and yet, there he is.

As far as Faith No More is concerned, i thought he was fine. I liked them then, but haven't really listened much since. Once i heard Disco Volante, i sort of abandoned all of the earlier stuff he did, including just about all of Faith No More.

I would say that in general, i don't think he is that great a singer, but that his ideas about composition, structure, and direction, are what elevates him to something more than that.

I would say it is fittingly like someone i would consider a precursor/mentor to him, in John Zorn. Zorn was not, after all, a very good saxophonist, IMO. He just had very good ideas about how to put sounds together against each other. And he had a very good skill for putting just the most correctly mismatched people in a room for making something cool and new pop out, which again, Patton seems to have been able to also pick up.

I am infinitely more into both, as organizers perhaps,than as musicians. I would say that i do also enjoy some of Mike Patton's work as a singer though. Certainly moreso than Zorn's as a sax player.

Like Dev, in the 90s it was all about the punk rock for me.

I do like industrial groovery. Post some of these Grip Inc. noises.

I was always fond of that one track. For the reasons you mentioned, basically totally. At the time you didn't yet feel that way, for technical reasons. Were there other tracks?

I will have to add Tool - Lateralus to my listz0rs.

I definitely did not like that sound at first like you say, I remember our conversation about this. I have come to love the ugliness of it greatly, it fits the aesthetic of our music in a special way. I wish to maintain this same vibe with the rapebass and grindy guitar with something else in there more clean to lend some clarity to the tone.

However, we're going to be re-recording the old song and a new one (possibly more soon) in a short amount of time. Kaleb and Ian were recording some practice drum tracks tonight which I might be getting ahold of tonight which shall be shared. They're currently recording 50 second chunks of songs that have not been completed yet, however progress is being made.

Well that's awesome man. I am excite.

So I'm not getting the drum tracks tonight, but tomorrow I oughta be getting them. I guess Ian's developed a mean fucking bomb blast and is throwing the euro around, so this shit has got me mad stoked.

I would go with the faire Doktor here. Late 90's early double naughts was not metal for me... I was more listeneing to NIN, Bile, and other not metal things.