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A (sort of) drum sound test. 
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:
Broseidon wrote:
And I used to really like the way my tom sounded, but the single head sounds superanemicweak to me. I need to replace it before I do any serious recording.


Single-head toms are generally a bad idea.

I know a guy who makes custom kits who has really shallow tom shells with only a top head (and bizarre shapes and venting; engraves cymbals to match kit finishes too) and he sounds good with those- he used to play in my occasional metal band. Really the only time I've ever heard them sound good. And even then it was more "unique"- odd sounding.

Gotta have the resonant head, IMO. On the kick too. A port is okay and useful, no front head is... er... :?

Now granted you can get very '70s by pulling your resonant heads, dampening the things, deadening the room... But I have the feeling that's not what we (collectively, as people who like good sounding recordings) like about the '70s. I think the recordings sounded great but the drum sounds were... not the best, by and large. There are exceptions. (I like wide-open '90s drums. The other best decade for rawk record sounds. Give me that kit in its full glory. Don't deaden it, don't make the gated 'verb louder than the drums.)

Getting your kick batter head situation straightened out will toughen up your kick right quick. I like Aquarian Superkick IIs. You can roll with the felt beater- the drummer in Garda does actually, single pedal too!- but I'd take a hard beater of any sort, myself. And yeah, seconded on the tuning thing. As a drummer, IMO your kick and snare-especially the snare, are your signature tones. Tune 'em up good. It makes a difference and makes even fairly cheesy kits sound good if the heads aren't destroyed.

Re: the batter head, just sounds like it's really worn, from your description. There's always the pads that apply where the beater strikes, if wear is an issue.

The snare sound, incidentally, isn't what I'd normally associate with a piccolo. It has a good mid-crack to it versus that high thin "pop!" sound.

Have you read this guy? http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/ Drum Tuning Bible. On the list of "useful informative stuff" floating around the intarwebs.


It's gotta Super Kick Dos on it, actually. And it's pretty new, I think one of my noob friends might have been mashing on the kick pedal though and that's what happened. I also ride the kick pretty hard, but there's no way that could just me playing..

I definitely had to fuck with my snare before I got it to sound like it does, actually the higher I tune it it seems like it gets more ballsy..? I also tend to wail on the bastard. It, IMO, sounds kinda paper-y in the clip versus how it does in the room. It's a pretty angry little piccolo.

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Simethicone
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Having the pair of kicks is a good thing. Less having to clobber physics- hit one drum 400x a minute versus 800x and you'll get a little more something useful. If you just want beater smack, the bigger drums are silly. My friend/collaborator Jim uses an old Ludwig 24 sometimes, but his stuff is slow to mid-tempo, generally, so he can get away with it. (Though he does throw quick blasts and grinds in there.)

Considering the operating frequency range, and how much weight you can get out of a 16" tom, there's no reason to use a big kick for fastmetal. It's counterproductive, especially if you only have one kick/double pedal.

Dude, a 20" Mapex with a Gibraltar pedal and wood beaters- they might as well have been stone!- was about the punchiest kick I've ever heard in my life IRL, or one of. Filled in for a show for my old goth-metal band some years ago. Skinny gay guy, totally normal looking, ripped some fierce DM and Meshuggah-type stuff. I remember his kick sound perfectly; immaculate, great punch and depth. Usually it's snares I remember.

The smaller drums and cymbals are not as impressive-looking for sure, but they suit the style- frequency and the actual physical response of the thing. The bigger toms I think- think work, just for depth, really. The lighter brass/lesser volume thing comes into play too. The cymbals are gonna cut through, no matter what. (And IMO some cheap trashy hats and chinas can actually work to your advantage sonically.) The ride is the one area where I'd go with something big and heavy, for projection and volume, given its use in the genre. The wash of the ride you're almost never gonna hear, you need the loud attack.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:13 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:
(And IMO some cheap trashy hats and chinas can actually work to your advantage sonically.)


My drummer has access to like.. 4 pair of hi-hats? 3 of which are in the $200-$300 range. Which ones does he use? The $50 Wuhans because "They sound trashy as fuck". :lol:

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:17 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Broseidon wrote:
It's gotta Super Kick Dos on it, actually. And it's pretty new, I think one of my noob friends might have been mashing on the kick pedal though and that's what happened. I also ride the kick pretty hard, but there's no way that could just me playing..

I definitely had to fuck with my snare before I got it to sound like it does, actually the higher I tune it it seems like it gets more ballsy..? I also tend to wail on the bastard. It, IMO, sounds kinda paper-y in the clip versus how it does in the room. It's a pretty angry little piccolo.


Huh. Those are beefy heads meant to take some abuse. That got damaged, then.

Five bucks for this: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/drums-percussion/remo-falam-slam-pad-kevlar-double-bass-drum-patch

Yer heads and stick weight and whatever the shell resonates best at are gonna affect the sound of your snare for serious. It's hardly set in stone. I've heard them [piccolo snares] sound quite good a number of times but those aren't the drummers I get to record with them. :lol: I like the sound of the snare on the clip so I'm betting it's pretty nice in the room. It has whatever the thing that registers to me as "right" about a snare drum is.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:21 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Broseidon wrote:

It's gotta Super Kick Dos on it, actually. And it's pretty new, I think one of my noob friends might have been mashing on the kick pedal though and that's what happened. I also ride the kick pretty hard, but there's no way that could just me playing..

Tuning and the amount of material padding the batter head seems to do a lot for kick life... also, those things that go where the beater hits. Basically it's about how much you're gonna let the beater rape it with each hit. Mine last a long time because I pad them well and use the thick Remo Falams.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:23 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:
Dude, a 20" Mapex with a Gibraltar pedal and wood beaters- they might as well have been stone!- was about the punchiest kick I've ever heard in my life IRL, or one of. Filled in for a show for my old goth-metal band some years ago. Skinny gay guy, totally normal looking, ripped some fierce DM and Meshuggah-type stuff. I remember his kick sound perfectly; immaculate, great punch and depth. Usually it's snares I remember.

Did it sound like he had much padding in there?

Here, let me link you my live kick sound:



2:05

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:25 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Unstrung wrote:
Broseidon wrote:

It's gotta Super Kick Dos on it, actually. And it's pretty new, I think one of my noob friends might have been mashing on the kick pedal though and that's what happened. I also ride the kick pretty hard, but there's no way that could just me playing..

Tuning and the amount of material padding the batter head seems to do a lot for kick life... also, those things that go where the beater hits. Basically it's about how much you're gonna let the beater rape it with each hit. Mine last a long time because I pad them well and use the thick Remo Falams.


The thing has got a pad on it and whatnot. I don't know if it's tuned particularly tight either.. I will have to do some experimentation tomorrow.

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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Broseidon wrote:
Snaxocaster wrote:
(And IMO some cheap trashy hats and chinas can actually work to your advantage sonically.)


My drummer has access to like.. 4 pair of hi-hats? 3 of which are in the $200-$300 range. Which ones does he use? The $50 Wuhans because "They sound trashy as fuck". :lol:


This is totally valid considering how the instrument actually sounds! Seriously. Nothing wrong with shitty hats (they're often pretty quiet, too, which is a plus recording.) or chinas. My two usual drummerpeeps keep cracked or broken chinas around, some expensive, some cheap. For the same reason. Cheap hats break easily, but they sound nasty and don't project like good hats do (into your snare mic, etc.)...

And one of my old drummers cracked a pair of 16" Zildjian Mastersounds. Think about that for a second. I made the mistake of taking my earplugs out for a bit and the first thing he does is lay into his custom Peace bell brass snare in a tiny concrete room. :eekass:

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:29 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:
This is totally valid considering how the instrument actually sounds! Seriously. Nothing wrong with shitty hats (they're often pretty quiet, too, which is a plus recording.) or chinas. My two usual drummerpeeps keep cracked or broken chinas around, some expensive, some cheap. For the same reason. Cheap hats break easily, but they sound nasty and don't project like good hats do (into your snare mic, etc.)...

And one of my old drummers cracked a pair of 16" Zildjian Mastersounds. Think about that for a second. I made the mistake of taking my earplugs out for a bit and the first thing he does is lay into his custom Peace bell brass snare in a tiny concrete room. :eekass:


The drummer I've been recording this week uses Solar / Sabian SBr hats, which are total ass. I have a set too. Thing is... I kind of like how they sound, listening to the recordings... they are tamed, a bit, compared to what I'm used to. This could be of use to me. These things are generally quiet and wimpy, and since I tend to struggle with too much high hat in my own stuff... could be worth a shot...

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:33 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Unstrung wrote:
Did it sound like he had much padding in there?

Here, let me link you my live kick sound:



2:05


Youtube is giving me an error and "please try again later" :mad:

Re: said kick sound, I remember there being minimal padding in the drum. It wasn't wide open, there was some, and it may have been a purpose-designed drum padding thing. I can't remember the kick head, either a Superkick II or an Evans EMAD, which might have something to do with it... I think it was the former, though, and what started my getting hooked on the things. It wasn't blankets or towels or random household shit.

For whatever reason, I remember this- the kit was a Mapex Pro M with an odd greenburst finish. Those are decent drums, but nothing super-crazy. They were just set up really, really well and played by a good player. IMO drummers are just as bad as guitarists in that regard, and it's often the guy with the middle-of-the-road workman-like gear that sounds the best... Because they know what they're doing.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:43 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Just listened to clip again and I just realized you can hear me saying "Okay, bro.." in the very beginning. :nods:

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:44 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:
Re: said kick sound, I remember there being minimal padding in the drum. It wasn't wide open, there was some, and it may have been a purpose-designed drum padding thing. I can't remember the kick head, either a Superkick II or an Evans EMAD, which might have something to do with it... I think it was the former, though, and what started my getting hooked on the things. It wasn't blankets or towels or random household shit.


Oh, did he get that really slappy sound? I love that, but I can't really get that with the amount of padding I use, and I can't really play the way I do without said padding. :red:

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:46 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
It was actually really resonant and fat, but with a really punchy attack.

Like the bastard child of this: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13184331/ROCK_KICK%2301%20copy.wav

and this:

But... the word I'm thinking here is "round". That and punchy.

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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
To make a sound like that without the aid of studio fuckery would be truly something.


I remember some time back, a friend brought his Sonor kit to my house. S Class or something? It had a long twenty inch kick that was fucking incredible. It seriously sounded like some techno bass sample. It was hugely bassy.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:15 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Yeah, thing was nuts. He might have just had a "magic" kick drum. I think he's a DJ now or something? :lol: It really was one of those sounds you don't expect to hear out of a real drum. It just had that sound, the low-mids perfectly carved. I've heard a few snares like that, usually large brass ones, that are just like "damn..." I've kinda grown accustomed to guys with seriously nice drum kits, and that one still sticks in my head.

I'd attempted to post this earlier but my connection crapped itself:

Unstrung wrote:
The drummer I've been recording this week uses Solar / Sabian SBr hats, which are total ass. I have a set too. Thing is... I kind of like how they sound, listening to the recordings... they are tamed, a bit, compared to what I'm used to. This could be of use to me. These things are generally quiet and wimpy, and since I tend to struggle with too much high hat in my own stuff... could be worth a shot...


Those are not rugged, they don't project well... Yeah, those are some really crappy hats, like sub B8 level...

To which I say: use them! They're hats; they're supposed to sound like that.

What are you using on the snare, and how's it placed, mic-wise? There's no, I don't think, hard-and-fast formula re: hat bleed, just placement, moving the hats up, and moving the mic around until (assuming it's not a figure 8 or omni) the hats are in the null point... Assuming the mic can actually reach there between the stands anyhow.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:32 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Unstrung wrote:
I remember some time back, a friend brought his Sonor kit to my house. S Class or something? It had a long twenty inch kick that was fucking incredible. It seriously sounded like some techno bass sample. It was hugely bassy.


I know these things exist because I've heard them. They are hard as all hell to find. There are kicks that sound like that unmiced. I think maybe ten of them are drop-shipped from... Neptune or somewhere once a year.

Truly, it's a bastard of an instrument. What we want it to sound like and what it is... are two totally different things.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:38 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Snaxocaster wrote:

What are you using on the snare, and how's it placed, mic-wise? There's no, I don't think, hard-and-fast formula re: hat bleed, just placement, moving the hats up, and moving the mic around until (assuming it's not a figure 8 or omni) the hats are in the null point... Assuming the mic can actually reach there between the stands anyhow.


Nothing special. A cardioid dynamic pointed at the top. I like to do the same to the bottom and flip the polarities, but lately I've been trying to get by without doing that. I should start with the little mini baffle on the snare mic to block out some more hat. But even then, the hats are all up in my overheads. The shit hats might be a big part of the answer to that problem, who knows. :nods:

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:13 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Everything will be all up in your overheads. You can move them around to whatever extent you like, but the thing d00ds are fighting against is the fact they are not spot mics close up on the cymbals. They are by their nature full kit mics. They're gonna get the attack from your top heads and all your cymbals and everything from up above. Either you change your setup or roll with it.

The hat in the close snare mic is a different animal. You can sneak around this guy, to a point. The hats are a bastard instrument though. They will get all up in everything. It's their nature, being a piece of brass slamming against another piece of brass. They will defeat your every effort to get separation.

One thing that I don't think has been fully exploited is what some of the metalguys have been pushing towards, spot-micing cymbals or cymbal groups and dispensing with the notion of a traditional overhead pair entirely, and then using room mics for realdrum sounds. I think largely because of the lowbudget-fakedrum thing. And this comes back to fighting the actual sonics of the stuff in context.

I've actually been tending more toward gates vs. expanders (and I was pimping expanders pretty hard for a while) lately, largely because of the gate on the Waves SSL G-Channel. It's not a super-hard gate though, and with a ton of mics to make up the rest I've been liking it. Without a ton of mics, if you're not expanding your snare and toms (you can still gate the kick hard, IMO) you're missing out if you want it to sound not-fake.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:57 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
Oh yeah I totally follow that the overheads are for capturing everything. I mean they are the one mic I really want hats in. I would never bother micing a hi hat, with the kind of drumming I tend to record. What a waste of a channel. Just my issue is, often the hats are louder than even the crashes and ride. I mean fuck. That is why I'd want to pursue maybe some quieter shittier hats. Leave the loud ones for on stage.

Expanding the snare is something I should really be doing. But in most of my own drum recordings lately, I really haven't given enough fucks to really work the mix. And the drummers I've recorded recently... one was so quiet on his snare that an expander really wouldn't do much. And the other slammed the snare so fucking loudly that it doesn't matter what bled into the snare mic, that thing is not having to be turned up much! But now with someone whose drumming is at more moderated levels all around, such as myself, it will have to be so.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:07 am
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Post Re: A (sort of) drum sound test.
There is always the old "mic the hats and blast it in the drummer's 'phones" trick... Easier done if you have a big board with routing options though, which is super-unfortunate.

Agreed on it being a waste. Unless the drummer works the hats like a sonofabitch, it sits fine where it is. If you can deal with the bleed and still make the snare rock, all the better. They are a terrible thing. I have no advice save for "move it 'til you hate life less". They are loud and obnoxious and get in the way. Furthermore, drum technique teaches drummers, most of whom are right-handed, to hit them with their right hand, while hitting the snare with their left. You have the most annoying part of the drum kit from a recordist's perspective and of course drummers are taught to clobber the thing with their strong hand with constant eighth notes.

If you really want to rock the Bruford angle, you could just have a kit without them. :idea:

When my metalband was last active, dude played with no crash cymbals. :hypno: Three rides, chinas, splashes, two normal hats, spoxe hats, no crashes.

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Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:26 am
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