Faith literally means believing in something despite having absolutely no proof whatsoever that it exists.

That said, religion contradicts itself over and over.

nice.

Pro tip: Don't become one of those preachy Dawkins rimmers who shoots their mouth off about how religion in stupid at every given opportunity.

Saw this today.

That basically sums up how I feel about a lot of the contradictions of Christianity's teaching. Also the whole "I love you, but I swear to myself if you don't worship me I will send you straight to the hell that I created for assholes like you," thing.

THIS. Now, I actually like Mr. Dawkins as a scientist, but he is like the equivalent of pouring habañero sauce on yer bunghole. None of my good friends, who are all (save for a pagan girl, who I think is a non-practicing Buddhist-influenced atheist now) non-religious think he's not a giant dick. Because he acts like a giant dick and gives us a bad name when, y'know, we're actually a bunch of tolerant folks. I'll read his books, but he is not a good representative for us and perpetuates the image of us being, well, see above.

He's a necessary figure and I'm sure he plays up to that. He wasn't always as inflammatory as he is now and I can understand why eventually you get hacked off with it and become a dickhole if you do what he does.

I concur. He's important, relevant and influential. He's a first-rate scientist. And I suspect he plays up his image as cranky old man, you're right.

And furthermore, I agree with the guy. But here in The States at least, where save for the younger generation (they're down with us) there isn't a great deal of tolerance, a less provocative figure- nasty old man who thinks you're a dumbfuck- as our public representative might do us a bit of good.

Still, I'm not gonna say I take issue with his books or whatnot. 'Cause I don't. Merely the perception of him- or his image- as the public face of atheism.

This does, though, tie into the anti-intellectualism of America at large. But that's its own topic, really.

Indeed but I think a bit of cage rattling is needed and he's good at that and defending his reasoning and the intolerant would still take offense at the most mild mannered of atheists anyway. So you face the choice of having no one listen to you because they think you're a heretic and you're tolerant of them or have them think you're a heretic and you're a dick about it but people at least talk about it. Neither are exactly wins but one at least puts it on the table. I've explored all approaches to atheism over my 31 years (I've always been at least agnostic, even as a kid) and in my younger days I would get frustrated but you learn quickly that you can't debate with people who wont listen and can call upon faith or anecdote. These days I keep it under my hat unless someone brings it up, in which case the gloves are off, although I very much doubt anyone would look at me and have me down as some sort of god botherer anyway. "so kid, what do you think about jesus?"

I wish anti-intellectualism was only an american movement but we're rife with it here too. Just ask your typical middle class white folk what they think about climate change and be prepared to weep. I was lambasted at a wedding recently for being a climate scientist, and thus my views upon the matter, and was given the old run around about the CRU email hacks and how its all one big conspiracy and no one can be certain blah blah and flat out I can't see it happening and us scientists are in it for money. They tend to go quiet when I ask them if they think that I am a liar, charlatan and a fraud and all of them vastly overestimated my salary. These people were investment bankers. Not classically uneducated people.

I never really understood this, either:

Oh god, don't even get me started on that...

I've had to learn to let it go. You can't put the world to rights unfortunately If people will make their minds up without evidence then you will struggle to change them. I suppose it comes down to people feeling inferior and stupid about being wrong or misguided. They don't see being wrong as a learning tool. Simply put an expert is someone who has made all possible mistakes in a given field after all!

And, to be fair, I would agree with you re: the need for cage rattling. Most of us are too polite for it, it seems, so someone with a bad attitude and a chip on their shoulder is useful. All movements need agitators. And any pushing of the message that gets people to think is a positive thing. Certainly some great inroads have been made.

Investment bankers have a vested interest in climate change denial. The upper classes as a whole do. They want it now and don't care. But I have a very dim view of monied interests. It's the whole foundation of their economic systems, the push against environmental regulation, etc.

I've witnessed it occur in my lifetime, in my home city, which is famous for its inclement weather. It's not my field and I can't say specifically how it relates to long-term patterns locally, but I am inclined, perhaps maybe just a bit, to side with people who actually know what they're talking about instead of the bought-and-paid-for shills for those who either just want to make a quick buck or have an irrational worldview. Y'know, maybe just a little.

All we can do is keep on fighting, I suppose. People have an unfortunate tendency to let their world be run by, y'know, sociopaths. But now we're really going off on tangents here.

It all does tie together somehow, though.

There has to be some Unified Theory Of Bullshit buried in there somewhere. Probably the subject of thousands of thesis papers. And probably time fer me to go back and finish that history degree I abandoned due to lack of funds.

What really put me off about religion was the realization that everything we know about it has been the fabrication of people. And people are manipulative, coercive, power hungry assholes. Granted, some rules of religions are good guidelines to live by (not murder, be nice to one another, yadda yadda...) but damn, lots of bad things have been done by religious folk. And what I especially hate is when people try to force their beliefs on others or judge others by their own religious moral standards.

We were talking to a relative last week and it got to be about her faith, that is, she and my uncle are Baha'i, which is quite a new religion. It seems religions start out usually with good intentions (maybe that is one of the things that separates them from cults) but with generations decays into what we typically see with all the major ones. Every value and belief she explained to us made perfect sense, except the part about her needing to believe in a deity for it all to fit together.

We (referring to not the big 'we' but the we who comprised the other end of that conversation) don't need to worship anyone to behave as enlightened morally aware individuals.

Wherefore David arose and went, he and his men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him Michal his daughter to wife.

1 Samuel 18:27

Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

1 Kings 21:20-22

...and they fried that shit up and made the first Calamari... wuz delicious.....

Ezekiel 23:20
New International Version (NIV)
20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.